Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

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Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Rorrak » Mon May 04, 2015 2:00 pm

Please someone help me understand.

Why do so many Kreoss3 lists sport a redeemer?
I'm sure there are better (more reliable) ways to trigger Warpath.
Kreoss can't help it out with its inaccuracy
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Lego-Pup » Tue May 05, 2015 12:56 pm

Think the idea is that it has 3 tries (4 with ancillary attack) at tagging low armour infantry that may have stealth or very high defense. The blast damage, with choir bonus if necessary, will be enough to kill them. Also it can boost a damage roll into a target with low defense and high armour.

More reliable ways from range might be (1) aiming/ancillary reckoner shots, but that uses up a high value attack to likely kill a single infantry model instead of taking on a heavier target, (2) aiming errants, but they don't ignore stealth and can struggle against natively high defense or high armour targets.
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Rorrak » Tue May 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Ok, I like your explanation to a degree.

Stealth units may very well deny you warpath and here you have a chance at it. I'm not sure I like the odds of that "chance". Maybe I need to math it out. It may be better than my gut feel says it is.
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Lego-Pup » Tue May 05, 2015 1:29 pm

Well a 3" aoe will hit any size base if it deviates 1" or 2" in any direction. So that's 1/3 chance to hit with an aoe from his gun. If you shoot 3 or 4 times you will likely hit at least once. Also if you are clever about picking your targets you can get aoes to deviate from the middle of clumps of dudes and increase your chances of hitting even when it scatters further. On top of all that you can also obviously boost his blast damage as well if you need to.
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Rorrak » Wed May 06, 2015 11:47 am

After mathing it out the chances of hitting is actually better than my Empirical knowledge would suggest.

With 3 shots, the chances of hitting is 70% (80% with Vassal) that does not factor in possibly hitting something else with the wayward scatters. Scatters are NOT purely random, so the positioning of your redeemer before shooting can be optimized

Against armour 10 or 11 you don't need choir to turn that into a kill. (it makes 2% difference) although if you are trying for a warpath trigger chances are good you are going to use the Battle Hymn anyway.

It is still 2 focus you have to hand out for a for a relatively low return outside of the warpath trigger which may or may not be valuable. That can only be learned from actual playing :)
They're something terribly satisfying about personally murdering the enemy wizard-general. Wracking them is cathartic, like squeezing a great big stress ball, except you're strapping it to a massive metal religious icon and it's screaming. -cryptomancer
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Charles » Tue May 12, 2015 12:35 pm

To my knowledge excep for triggering warpath they use the Redeemer to get to the units like eEyriss, Mage hunters and Nyss hunters units etc .. those nasty units with High Def that will just wreck your game because you cant get to them quickly enough.
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Rorrak » Wed May 13, 2015 12:46 pm

That's a good point also. You can't bring Visgoth in every list :)
They're something terribly satisfying about personally murdering the enemy wizard-general. Wracking them is cathartic, like squeezing a great big stress ball, except you're strapping it to a massive metal religious icon and it's screaming. -cryptomancer
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Dark Angel » Wed May 13, 2015 1:14 pm

Usually those nasty units end up on fire from half way across the board. Or at least thats how it seems to go every game...
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Charles » Wed May 13, 2015 3:33 pm

Yep exactly and no eFeora in every list.

I would say your Redeemer also depends on your Meta but if you go to GenCon or BIG tournament with lots of different lists , you would need it.

Usually those nasty units end up on fire from half way across the board. Or at least thats how it seems to go every game...


Because the redeemer and has a good woman behind it :)
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby und_ed » Fri May 15, 2015 6:47 pm

I know this May sound like heresy, but I wouldn't even take the choir with Kreoss 3. One jack does not justify their inclusion, and he doesn't want to feed focus to a battle group.
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Rorrak » Mon May 18, 2015 10:42 am

Ed, you are thinking of Kreoss 2 and I would agree he does not bring a choir

Kreoss 3 doesn't feel like a 1 jack caster to me, not with Warpath in his arsenal.

I'm considering a double heavy load out of (Fire of Salvation+ Reckoner) or (Reckoner,Reckoner)
Maybe even a trio, but I do want to run a Max Vengers and the 3rd Heavy may be too much.

I really need a meat mountain counter drop and this may be it.


This is the list where I saw a redeemer being used. (Its used in others also but this one did well)
Kreoss3 [Tier 4] (Mike Puryear [Other_Mike], 3rd Place, Lock & Load Masters, June)
-Redeemer
-Fire of Salvation
-Templar
Choir of Menoth (Min.)
Exemplar Errants (Max.)
-Officer & Standard
Exemplar Vengers (Max.)
Exemplar Vengers (Min.)
Reclaimer
Vassal of Menoth


I really need to play him to find out what works but was thinking
-5 Kreoss3
9 Fire of Salvation,
16 Reckoner x 2
2 Hierophant
2 Choir of Menoth (Min.)
10 Full Errants + UA
11 Full Vengers
4 Vassal x 2
1 Wracks
-----
50

but if I want to include a redeemer I need to drop a Reckoner and am wondering if it adds enough value.
They're something terribly satisfying about personally murdering the enemy wizard-general. Wracking them is cathartic, like squeezing a great big stress ball, except you're strapping it to a massive metal religious icon and it's screaming. -cryptomancer
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Charles » Mon May 18, 2015 12:06 pm

Depending on your Meta, do you have if you need to deal with a lot of Stealth and Alhpa Strike Units ? Do you have another list that can deal with those sort of lists.

If you like the Reckoners, maybe try less Errants, one less Vassal and no Hierophant. 4 Jacks and Kreoss for Warpath ,should make Warpath work overtime.
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Rorrak » Mon May 18, 2015 12:26 pm

Yes, I do have another list that can deal with lots of Stealth and do need it quite often :)
They're something terribly satisfying about personally murdering the enemy wizard-general. Wracking them is cathartic, like squeezing a great big stress ball, except you're strapping it to a massive metal religious icon and it's screaming. -cryptomancer
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Charles » Mon May 18, 2015 12:52 pm

Then you might want to think of including the redeemer then you do have a method of dealing with it, as you don't want to come in situation we're your anti- stealth list has been played and you can't play it again.

On including the redeemer my reasoning is you probably don't need that much Jack support, not sure if Hierophant will be able to stay with Kreoss3, maybe you don't need to full unit Errants or maybe not the UA (as it might go into another list). Difficult getting the balance right with lots of Jack and there support.

BTW ... I like your list.
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Re: Kreoss 3 and Redeemer?

Postby Rorrak » Mon May 18, 2015 1:16 pm

UA counts as a character drop and therefore only 1 list? I did not realize that.
They're something terribly satisfying about personally murdering the enemy wizard-general. Wracking them is cathartic, like squeezing a great big stress ball, except you're strapping it to a massive metal religious icon and it's screaming. -cryptomancer
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