Summoning

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Summoning

Postby Danie Smit » Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:33 pm

I think the most imbalanced things are still summoning (re-raise a unit of 9 that you killed already just with a 6+ on 2d6 is quite rough). This also can be broken with the blue scribes who cast at 2+. It means they can summon greater demons on a 2+. It's really a big abuse so I hope no one will use it.


So i quote the above from another thread. I've tried to limit summoning a bit using Azyr comp and my Warzone League rules. Lets discuss here how Summoning could be use to break the game whilst adhering to above rules

The blue scribes are special case though. Their first ability is to gain spells other wizards cast, on a 4+. Their second ability is to be able to cast the gained spells on a 2+. Not any of the other spells they may know. (this is how I read it and how I'd rule it in Warzone League and Tournaments)

Saying it's an abuse and hopefully no one would use it isn't really fair. I think this game should be able to be played as is, with the few rules amendments we've made, to it's fullest. If we find some dripping cheese, we should address it.
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Re: Summoning

Postby The italian job » Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:32 pm

Blue scribe rules:

Frantic Scribbling: Roll a dice each time
a Wizard within 18" of the Blue Scribes
successfully casts a spell (whether or not
it is unbound); on a 4 or more the Blue
Scribes learn that spell and can attempt to
cast it in subsequent turns.

Scrolls of Sorcery: Once in each of your
hero phases, the Blue Scribes can attempt
to read from their Scrolls of Sorcery
instead of making a casting attempt.
If they do, roll a dice; on a 1, they can’t
decipher the scrawls and the casting
attempt automatically fails, but on a 2 or
more, that spell is successfully cast and can
only be unbound on a roll of a 9 or more.

The Scroll of Sorcery do not mention anything about stolen spells and the other ability do not mention anything about scroll of sorcery. If you read it like this (could be legit) this rule need to be errata'd or amended.

The summoning to me remain still too strong. We need to put something like "you need to pay for the warscroll you're taking with the summoning unit". So you can either not field the unit and then summon it as deep strike (and at this point we can make them charge or do something) or you can resummon a unit that was killed. The point is on the first turn your mages will be probably out of dispel range, so starting with 10 or more points (especially if you got tzeench that can multicast in the same turn) can be quite rough.
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Re: Summoning

Postby Danie Smit » Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:43 pm

i see what you mean re: blue scribes.

Our errata for them would thus be:

Their first ability is to gain spells other wizards cast, on a 4+. Their second ability is to be able to cast the gained spells on a 2+. Not any of the other spells they may know.

I am loathe to change the summoning rules without extensive testing first (other than the changes already implemented). paying for a unit that you may or may not be able to summon is not a way I'd like to go.
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Re: Summoning

Postby The italian job » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:01 pm

My second proposal is: pay for the unit and deploy it on the field, then if the unit dies, you can resummon. But cannot just bring a warscroll with few greater demons and then summon them if you did not pay for them. Also minor demons are summoned at 6 so you are almost assured to get some free points if you summon them on first turn.
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Re: Summoning

Postby Danie Smit » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:49 am

I think i have the solution.

so this is what it is in the current comp pack for summoning:


3. Summoning rules: summoning is defined as any rule bringing new units onto the field that was not paid for as part of army building – not just spells:
a. any summoned unit may not do anything in the Hero phase, in addition to any other rules they may
have.
b. when summoning, you should have models to represent what you're bringing on, within reasonable
proxies as per below.
c. when summoning, only minimum sized units may be brought on, unless otherwise specified.
d. summoning spells all count as the same spell for purposes of number of times a spell may be cast per
turn. So a wizard who can cast 2 spells can only ever do 1 summon a turn
e. increasing existing units’ size does not count as summoning


id change/add the following:

d. (changed point) all the summoning spells that has the same first word in the spell name counts as the same spell. So a wizard can only ever do 1 summon a turn, and/or 1 raise, and/or 1 manifest. This will also count for reanimate, even though reanimate isn't a summoning spell as per point (e) below.
f. (new point) a wizard can only summon units which costs less than the wizard in the Azyr comp pack. For example, Kairos Fateweaver (7pts) can summon a Lord of Change (5pts), but a Lord of Change can't summon a Lord of Change.


The above changes amendments to summoning is really the furthest i'd be comfortable with to change the summoning rules. It already feels like too much actually... As I play lizardmen, which can summon, all I want is for the summoning rules to be fair for all involved.

I'll release a new pack with the above as @Auticus released a new version of Azyr comp as well.

Constructive comments welcome.
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Re: Summoning

Postby Danie Smit » Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:09 am

So we tested the above, and unfortunately it came up short. After discussion with players present, we have decided the following (added/amended rules in bold):

3. Summoning rules: summoning is defined as any rule bringing new units onto the field that was not paid for as part of army building – not just spells:
a. any summoned unit may not do anything in the Hero phase, in addition to any other rules they may
have.
b. when summoning, you should have models to represent what you're bringing on, within reasonable
proxies as per below.
c. when summoning, only minimum sized units may be brought on, unless otherwise specified. In addition, no units with the HERO and/or MONSTER keyword may be summoned, unless specified in the rule/spell.
d. wizards may only keep one summoned unit in play at a time. Mark the wizard and the unit with a token or something to remind that the unit belongs to the wizard. However, a wizard may keep one summoned, one raised AND one manifested unit in play this way - gives a reason for the differing names to the spells and helps undead a little

e. increasing existing units’ size does not count as summoning

Note that above reverses the summoning less points than the wizard is worth rule (previously point (f)). I'm really trying to keep the summoning restrictions fair and reasonable as possible without adding too many extra rules...

As an aside, and nothing to do with summoning, a new rule will be added re: warmachines - randomising between machine and crew like 8th ed did. League Rulespack will be updated soonest
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Re: Summoning

Postby Tai-Pan » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:08 pm

So many custom rules really don't inspire confidence in the game system...

It's almost like players have rewritten the rules to bend the local meta to their way of playing.

I heard that age of sigmar was broken, but wow. ..

So if your play style in fantasy was summoning undead... you're pretty screwed.
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Re: Summoning

Postby Danie Smit » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:40 pm

Tai-Pan wrote:So many custom rules really don't inspire confidence in the game system...


So many custom rules? there's only like 6?

Tai-Pan wrote:It's almost like players have rewritten the rules to bend the local meta to their way of playing.


How did we bend the local meta? There was no local meta until the above custom rules were introduced. We're just trying to polish it now

Tai-Pan wrote:I heard that age of sigmar was broken, but wow. ..


You heard incorrectly. I unfortunately dont know who you are, but only people who havent actually played the game say that.

Tai-Pan wrote:So if your play style in fantasy was summoning undead... you're pretty screwed.


Not really.

As I said above, constructive comments are welcome.
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Re: Summoning

Postby Tai-Pan » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:00 pm

Danie Smit wrote:
Tai-Pan wrote:So many custom rules really don't inspire confidence in the game system...


So many custom rules? there's only like 6?

Tai-Pan wrote:It's almost like players have rewritten the rules to bend the local meta to their way of playing.


How did we bend the local meta? There was no local meta until the above custom rules were introduced. We're just trying to polish it now

Tai-Pan wrote:I heard that age of sigmar was broken, but wow. ..


You heard incorrectly. I unfortunately dont know who you are, but only people who havent actually played the game say that.

Tai-Pan wrote:So if your play style in fantasy was summoning undead... you're pretty screwed.


Not really.

As I said above, constructive comments are welcome.



Points taken.

Any systems playability depends not only on the rules, but other factors as well.

thank you for assisting me in deciding if i want to give age of sigmar another try.
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