Saga Second Ed. (updated after first trial game)

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Saga Second Ed. (updated after first trial game)

Postby Golf Alpha Zulu » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:27 pm

Last edited by Golf Alpha Zulu on Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Saga Second Edition Teaser

Postby geekgrrrl » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:34 am

This is SO exciting. It looks like they are leaning heavily into the heroes of legend angle, and that werewolf suggests they're not shy to introduce mythological aspects as well. Which is awesome. The number one dismissal I've encountered against SAGA is that the game system sounds interesting, but they're just not keen on a historical game. Leaning into mythology clearly differentiates this from other fantasy games, while keeping it firmly rooted in historical gaming. Cannot wait!

Squeeeee!
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Re: Saga Second Edition Teaser

Postby Golf Alpha Zulu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:25 am

Agreed. Very exciting.

The resistance we sometimes get is different... goes summink like: "Vikings... meh. Do they have Carthaginians..."

So the idea of a core rulebook, with modules for the various eras (including fantasy), looks like it could spread the appeal.

And I suppose they would be silly not to formalise the model, given the obvious energy the fanbase has put into homegrown boards...
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Re: Saga Second Edition Teaser

Postby DaImp » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:16 pm

I'm personally not excited by the prospect of adding fantasy elements to SAGA. I don't want another fantasy system I want a Dark Ages system :/ I worry that its going to dilute the system. That said there do seem to be some exciting other developments coming for SAGA.
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Re: Saga Second Edition Teaser

Postby geekgrrrl » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:50 pm

DaImp wrote:I'm personally not excited by the prospect of adding fantasy elements to SAGA. I don't want another fantasy system I want a Dark Ages system :/ I worry that its going to dilute the system. That said there do seem to be some exciting other developments coming for SAGA.


I totally understand that. Hopefully it is an optional module of some sort. I think it will make a good trojan horse to get people to play a historical game without realizing they're playing a historical system. ^_^
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Re: Saga Second Edition Teaser

Postby Golf Alpha Zulu » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:58 pm

Look, a new edition is overdue. Once you get used to the clarity and user-friendly approach used in C&C and A&A, the original rulebook seems a bit obtuse. So I dont think that a 2nd Edition could be avoided...

I see it as broadening the appeal of the system, rather than diluting it.

I expect the "era" source books to be pretty much self-contained, much like VA, C&C and A&A are currently, and think that Studio Tomahawk are just giving formal expression to the more popular fan-driven modules already out there. I am sure the core Dark Age modules will play much as they currently do...

Yes, it does mean there will be more "flavors" of Saga to choose from, and in a small player base that can be a challenge. But hopefully they will stick to the idea of releasing source books in phases... so clubs can migrate their interest together with the releases, much as they have done with the first edition releases.

Lots of interest in the potential of a 100 years war/medieval flavored Saga from the lads at our club...
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Re: Saga Second Edition Teaser

Postby Golf Alpha Zulu » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:38 am

Some more info:

http://www.studio-tomahawk.com/en/saga- ... ex-buchel/

All fairly predictable.

I am, however, concerned about possible changes to the basic rules engine... on another forum I saw a fairly cryptic comment by one member of the ST playtesting cohort that implied that the rules changes will be deeper than some would expect, and might not please all current players of the game... :problem:
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Re: Saga Second Ed. (updated after Crisis official demo game

Postby Golf Alpha Zulu » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:58 am

Here you go... the first "field report" of the changes to the basic Saga game engine:

http://skirmishwargaming.com/saga-secon ... n-changes/

Fairly fundamental, as rumored.

Nothing that freaks me out, except maybe the "move in straight lines" thing. But that is an aesthetic issue for me, not a gameplay issue. I can see how it will resolve a lot of the grey areas in charges and melee.

The most fundamental negative is that it will certainly mean most of the existing battle boards will now be obsolete. Oh well, got a good amount of gaming out of them...
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Re: Saga Second Ed. (updated after Crisis official demo game

Postby geekgrrrl » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:05 pm

Yeah sjoe...

Some stuff in there leaves me mighty perturbed. Granted, they're probably still heavily playtesting and such but yeah.
1 - I'm with you on the straight line movement. SAGA is a small-scale skirmish game - ala Utred leads his band of retainers on a night raid rather than Utred commands hundreds of warriors in a shieldwall. Restricting movement to straight lines makes sense for the latter, not the former. It makes sense for a charge into combat if you're dealing with a larger unit in formation, but for a loose band of elite warriors moving individually, not so much.
2 - Levy are untrained peasants who need to be kept under close supervision by the more experienced hearthguard. The fact they don't generate SAGA dice captures that perfectly IMO. From a gameplay POV it also adds a level of tactical difficulty I appreciate. I don't get the logic behind having that change.
3 - Having 3 fatigue=exhaustion ... professional warriors are supposed to be able to endure more in war than untrained conscripts are. So no. O_o
4 - Scrapping Side-by-Side is a mistake IMO. I realise it can make for some game-ending charges, but again, I feel it captures the feel of the type of battles the game reflects. Having the Warlord be able to take direct command of his most trusted henchmen and lead them into the fray is natural. Getting rid of the rule entirely rather than changing it to avoid abuse detracts from the game.
5 - Increasing the Warlord's combat dice to 8 is a mistake. Extra dice are a blunt instrument, and he's almost too powerful as it is on the battlefield. I'd rather they'd given him additional special abilities to reflect his leadership, tactical knowledge and warrior's training.

Not all bad though. I like that the Warlord generates fewer Order dice, and that he takes fatigue instead of ignoring a hit outright. It reflects reality a bit better while keeping the warlord a potent force on the battlefield. I also like the changes made to the fatigue system.

But yeah, so far I am very dubious. I was really excited about the new format and additional settings they were going to cover and such, but this feels like a step back. It almost feels like they are trying to simplify it even further, but I think they run the risk of going too far and losing some of the flavour and tactical depth of the game.
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Re: Saga Second Ed. (updated after Crisis official demo game

Postby Golf Alpha Zulu » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:51 am

geekgrrrl wrote:Some stuff in there leaves me mighty perturbed.


Interesting.

The reaction from our Saga group has ranged from "Wooohooo bring it on" to "I dont understand why they did x, but otherwise i think i like it".

geekgrrrl wrote:1 - I'm with you on the straight line movement. SAGA is a small-scale skirmish game - ala Utred leads his band of retainers on a night raid rather than Utred commands hundreds of warriors in a shieldwall. Restricting movement to straight lines makes sense for the latter, not the former. It makes sense for a charge into combat if you're dealing with a larger unit in formation, but for a loose band of elite warriors moving individually, not so much


Dont get me wrong. I am sad that some aesthetics have been lost, but for me, the improvement in gameplay that this could bring, could well outweigh my aesthetic concerns. Ditto for dropping Side by Side. The same result (charging in with all your hard boys) can still be effected, it will just take two activations.

geekgrrrl wrote:2 - Levy are untrained peasants who need to be kept under close supervision by the more experienced hearthguard. The fact they don't generate SAGA dice captures that perfectly IMO. From a gameplay POV it also adds a level of tactical difficulty I appreciate. I don't get the logic behind having that change.


One of our club members has pointed out that levy heavy builds look like they will now be viable, which might itself be the reason for the change. They are still going to be soft as hell, so will still need a lot of attention to play correctly.

geekgrrrl wrote:3 - Having 3 fatigue=exhaustion ... professional warriors are supposed to be able to endure more in war than untrained conscripts are. So no. O_o


I suspect this is another aspect of the "bring levy more into the game" rather than "nerf hearthguard". Also, its going to be harder to justify leaving fatigue on an enemy unit during melee, so I figure that the exhaustion limits were dropped to keep that choice in the game, and not nerf those factions that rely on tiring out the enemy.

For me, its going to be an interesting time, that hopefully "reboots" Saga. New builds, new tactics. Love the idea of slowly building up to a full 8 dice on your board (especially in small point games), and then playing one killer turn...
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Re: Saga Second Ed. (updated after Crisis official demo game

Postby geekgrrrl » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:32 pm

I suppose my initial reaction may have been a bit extreme - I agree that factions like the Anglo-Saxons and such do often have a significant disadvantage in the current game. I do still feel though that giving levies the same level of command capacity and endurance as warriors and hearthguard is not the ideal solution. There's already a level of sameness to the units that I had hoped they would take in the opposite direction. I was surprised at the decision to de-differentiate the unit types even more.

The movement thing is a big deal for me though. My partner Kay and I like to play scenarios like raids, assassinations and the like, where our warbands are often required to weave their way though villages or densely forested areas. Being restricted to straight-line movement is going to significantly restrict how playable those sorts of dense-terrain scenarios are.

Anyway, we'll have to see what happens. We don't know what other changes are being made to the game, and some of those might very well address my misgivings. ^_^
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Re: Saga Second Ed. (updated after Crisis official demo game

Postby Golf Alpha Zulu » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:39 pm

geekgrrrl wrote:Anyway, we'll have to see what happens


Indeed. Am looking forward to giving it a go. Looks like our club C&C campaign (starting January) will be our last rattle at 1st Ed.

Now, the only big question I have, as I work on a wild Scotti warband - part legend, part history - for A&A, is, were base sizes specified? :P
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Re: Saga Second Ed. (updated after Crisis official demo game

Postby geekgrrrl » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:03 pm

Golf Alpha Zulu wrote:Indeed. Am looking forward to giving it a go.


Yeah. Despite my misgivings I remain excited for the idea of an official fantasy SAGA. Not to mention ancient Bronze Age. An Amazon Army is totally on my bucket list. ^_^

Now, the only big question I have, as I work on a wild Scotti warband - part legend, part history - for A&A, is, were base sizes specified? :P


Hehe. They were not. :P
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Re: Saga Second Ed. (updated after Crisis official demo game

Postby DaImp » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:26 am

I'm getting rather excited to see what comes out for SAGA 2. I'm hoping we can set up some demos (maybe even supported by Gripping Beast?) at ICON to introduce players to the game.
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Re: Saga Second Ed. (updated after Crisis official demo game

Postby GeriatricGit » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:52 pm

DaImp wrote:I'm hoping we can set up some demos (maybe even supported by Gripping Beast?) at ICON to introduce players to the game.


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